About falacies, half truths, biased information, opinions without facts and other misinformation stuff

[Roger B]

Hi friends.

I started to read and become member of some expat forums by accident.  I landed at BN about 4 years ago because doing a research on the internet a link appeared in my computer screen that gave me the will and impulse to read more and state my opinion and real facts about the discussion that was taking place in that site.  

I am totally aware that Panama is considered a third world country.  I know that Panama has a lot of things that are not working as it should or the same way it is working on some developed countries.  I know that our political class is not worthy and their greed of money and power makes our country worse.  I know that some businessmen in Panama are racist and classist.  I am very conscious that we need to improve in a lot of areas that involves education, legal systems, laws, etc.  but besides of that issues that needed some improvement the country has been working for a little more of 100 years, the country is moving, the country is doing relatively well, the country has good people and working people, the country is doing better than other latin american countries in a lot of areas.  So Panama is not totally bad at all.  It is still a livable country and most of the Panamanians and a lot of expats from different parts of the world like this country and are doing well in this country.... and some expats I know will stay in this country all their life.

 

It is interesting to see on those forums how people spread and spill information on the site base mostly on their personal opinions but not in facts.  People that writes about Panama's culture, legal systems, laws, business procedures, economy, politics and almost everything with very little information, with biased information or half truths.  They spread like a fact a lot of falacies about Panama and Panamanians.... and a lot of them love to generalize on all of the topics.  People that only hang out with other expats of their same nationality but dont have the time or willingness to meet some locals of all types:  from professionals to humble workers.   People that don't even try to learn, at least, some few words in spanish that are highly appreciate by locals.  Some people live in small farmer towns in the interior of Panama, small cities that are capital of provinces and take for granted that the experience they had in those little towns are the same in all the country.   I know that our country is so small that everything is centralized in Panama City but to compare Las Tablas with Panama City in terms of amount and type of restaurants, amount and type of amenities, living cost, availability of some stuff is not wise and fair.  Is like comparing Chickasaw in OK with NYC.    I have read people that post that: "a friend, neighbor or colleague who is panamanian told me so..."  I doesnt mean that all panamanians really know all the stuff that are happening in the country.  Some panamanians dont even know the Constitution of the Republic of Panama.  Some panamanians lack of knowledge on legal matters, business procedures, culture, etc.  Some Panamanians cant even tell you what we celebrate on November 28th.  

 

Because I do hate generalizations I can't place all the expats in the same basket.  I have had the honor to exchange some lines with some expats.... FRIENDS, that are a pleasure to discuss any topic.  People that you can talk about anything.  That are very intelligent, mature, unbiased, self centered, etc.  That doesnt mean that they are not going to criticize what it needed to be criticized in Panama.  But they will do it with facts.  With correct knowledge of the genesis of the problem and what should be the best way to address it.  It could be better if they could participate also in helping in the solution of the issue.   There are some expats I have known in these places that are really involved in getting the information, investigating, mingling with locals and becoming part of their community.  That have an open mind to see what is really going on and what should we do in order to improve this little place that is their new HOME.  They know that Panama is not a paradise according to some people's definition but it is a place they like and have started to love.  With all its virtues and imperfections.  A true love.  

 In another place on the internet, that is related to a very beautiful town in Chiriqui, whose name I dont want to remember there are some threads that are dealing with some issues about Panama.  It is funny to see all the "opinions" spilled about some themes and issues in Panama that make me laugh because of the ignorance of the facts shown there.  I have had the need to jump in and write something but I decided not to do so.  It is worthless.  I decided to leave them in their ignorance.  The only bad thing is that other people that reads them will considered what it is written as truth.  

 

So I apologize for this Monday rant.... I wanted to say something about this issue.  I love Panama, I love panamanians and I do love expats residents in Panama that love this little imperfect country with its virtues and imperfections.

[JudyS]

Rant away Roger!  You know more about Panama than anybody on these forums.  You input is always appreciated.

[TwoSailors]

Roger,

Your rant as many good points.

Although, I would not classify Panama, as a "Third World" country, nor would a lot of  world  economic analyst's, I would guess.

http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/third_world_countries.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama

 

 

[Roger B]

38 minutes ago, JudyS said:

Rant away Roger!  You know more about Panama than anybody on these forums.  You input is always appreciated.

So does your friendship and posts.   I do really appreciate them.  

[JohnF13]

Roger,

Well said.  We came to Panama three years ago intent on a fact-finding trip and just didn't leave.  We love the Country as a whole and, in general, Panamanians are generous and accommodating.  Yes, there has been the odd time when we met someone with nefarious intent, but that is also true of North Americans.  Politicians throughout the World now, unfortunately, are only interested in what the office can bring them.  Sometimes it seems a bit more obvious here but as you said, the Country is just over 100 years old and real democracy needs longer than that to develop fully.

First World, Third World, just names given by an elitist few.  It doesn't matter as long as the people are moving forward and it seems to me that despite roadblocks, the Panamanian people are doing just that.

Does Panama work as a Country?  In my opinion, yes, and quite well.  Sure, there area areas that could be improved but they will be addressed in time.

My only complaint?  In a word, GARBAGE.  I hate what is being done to the Country as a whole as a result of careless dumping of trash.  But that is also easily fixable if politicians would really address the issue and if recycling and proper disposal were taught in schools.

In a nutshell, we love it here and just wish we had come earlier.

Keep up the good work.

[Roger B]

11 hours ago, JohnF13 said:

Roger,

My only complaint?  In a word, GARBAGE.  I hate what is being done to the Country as a whole as a result of careless dumping of trash.  But that is also easily fixable if politicians would really address the issue and if recycling and proper disposal were taught in schools.

 

 

John F13

 

Thanks for your words.  Panamanians love expats that love this little country.  There is a gentleman called Jim Thomas.  He is the owner of a Sports Bar in the Azuero Peninzula called Ponchalo's.  He love baseball and is in almost all the games held in both provinces: Herrera and Los Santos.  But he also supported the Little League Teams of Panama in the World Championship held in the US.   It was funny because he was taken out of the stadium because he was so noisy supporting Panama's kids in his own home state, Maine.  He is a respectful and love expats in the Azuero Peninzula.  He is so famous that channel 4 has done some advertising with him.  When you give love, you receive love.

 

John you hit the nail with the problem of garbage.  I have written several articles and post in Panama's regarding this issue.  I will blame on the government first and second on some panamanians.  It is a long time problem that some professionals in Panama have been fighting for in Panama for years.  To do something serious about it.  

 

Because it is not a fancy project that any politician of any political party could use in heavy advertising campaigns  to gain votes at the election time the Solid Waste Disposal has not been a project that governments has taken seriously.  Recycling??? It is a word not known by the politicians and agencies in charge of environmental issues.  The government agencies that are in charge of the Garbage disposal systems are the Municipios that are lacking of enough funds to do something properly.  There is an old bochinche from about 15 to 20 years ago that a Japanese company came to Panama to offer the solution for the solid waste disposal, create some recycling infrastructure and use the other garbage from production of methane gas to the use of other materials for other industrial uses.  The rumours says that some high level politicians asked for some slices of the business to the japanese company and they flew away because of that.  It was a rumour that we in Panama repeated continuosly to criticize the government officials.  

This starts with the issue of "Who came first: the chicken or the egg.".  Some people think that if we have a good collection systems, with lot of disposal cans or recipients and neighborhoods in the streets, good amount of garbage trucks and regular collection hours and days people could be educated to not dispose the garbage the way they are doing right now.  Other people says that people need to be educated on how to dispose the garbage properly.   But what happen if there is not enough trash cans or recipients to dispose the garbage properly?  

Well.  It is a subject that I have had written a couple of times to a lady diputado that was known in Panama as ecologist and environmentalist but now she is a diputado, a politician and now she is silent and not doing what we expected her to do regarding this issue.  Last time she handed out a law project proposal for solid wasted management but I havent heard about the project at the Asamblea anymore.  

[Keith Woolford]

Thanks for sticking around and sharing your knowledge and wisdom, Roger. Your comments are always courteous and enlightening, and the community is fortunate to have you as a friend.

Edited May 23, 2016 by Keith Woolford

[JohnF13]

Roger,

It is a fact that garbage collection is " not sexy".  It may take some leaps of faith by politicos to get behind a serious attempt at a solution.  Back in Canada I was quite " politically connected" and have studiously avoided it here, obviously because I am not Panamanian.  But, I do try to understand the nuances of the system here and  wonder why, at the municipal level, that more is not done to appease the public.  I wonder, sometimes, if the population is so inured to the system as it is now that change will be very difficult.  I also wonder, after speaking to some of my Panamanian friends, why garbage is not a higher priority.  Most of those I talk to hate garbage as much as me.  I take stuff to the dump ( landfill site would be too posh a phrase) and again, wonder why it is as it is.  Perhaps an existential argument that will never be solved but someone ( other than me) must have valid ideas.

I just do not know the answer and THAT annoys me.

[Bonnie]

1 hour ago, JohnF13 said:

Roger,

It is a fact that garbage collection is " not sexy".  It may take some leaps of faith by politicos to get behind a serious attempt at a solution.  Back in Canada I was quite " politically connected" and have studiously avoided it here, obviously because I am not Panamanian.  But, I do try to understand the nuances of the system here and  wonder why, at the municipal level, that more is not done to appease the public.  I wonder, sometimes, if the population is so inured to the system as it is now that change will be very difficult.  I also wonder, after speaking to some of my Panamanian friends, why garbage is not a higher priority.  Most of those I talk to hate garbage as much as me.  I take stuff to the dump ( landfill site would be too posh a phrase) and again, wonder why it is as it is.  Perhaps an existential argument that will never be solved but someone ( other than me) must have valid ideas.

I just do not know the answer and THAT annoys me.

I'm old enough to remember when trash and garbage was a significant problem in the U.S. It took the national "Don't Be a Litterburg" campaign to turn things around. Panama should consider a national push of this type. I recently visited Medellin and was delighted to find so large a city virtually free of trash/garbage and of people actually picking up trash on the sidewalks and roads. It's a black eye for Panama if it doesn't come to terms with this issue.

Incidentally, I've noticed that the trash barrel at the bus kiosk near Alto Dorado is nearly always full to overflowing. This suggests to me that a good first step would be providing more places to deposit garbage.

 

[WryAwry]

Sr. Bellini,

You must be well aware how rare and unusual your thoughtful and thought-provoking contributions have always been on these expat forums -- it leads one to believe that your contributions as a citizen of Panama, the country you so clearly love, must be equally profound and positive. Those of us that arrived in Panama later in life, and those lucky souls that remain in those green, green hills and along those beautiful shores, are blessed to have such a comprehensive source of calm advice and eminently informed opinion. I personally consider it an honor to have been exposed to your always-welcome observations, which so often apply perfectly to the greater world-at-large, far beyond the borders of your homeland.

Voy a mirar hacia adelante a la lectura de sus pensamientos y opiniones durante mucho tiempo venir.

Gracias, Sr.,

Dav

[Bud]

You always bring a studied, well written, and sincere expression of your thoughts and feelings about this subject. And you do so without attacking or being condescending. It is clear that you care deeply about your country, which is our "adopted" country. Thank you for sharing here, and for tackling some important social issues.

When Marcelyn and I started CL last October, we were hoping that we would see a lot of postings similar to what you routinely post here on CL. One of our goals was to help integrate the diverse cultures found in the area. Your postings are right on target. That makes us happy. We appreciate your being a CL member, especially an active contributor.

On the issue of the garbage, at this stage in our lives, we believe strongly that the solution to almost every problem in the world comes from education. We understand that there are two sides to the garbage dilemma (your "chicken versus the egg" comments above), but we suggest that education is where the solution really starts, not providing the resources first.

Thanks for being a CL member.

[JohnF13]

10 hours ago, Bonnie said:

I'm old enough to remember when trash and garbage was a significant problem in the U.S. It took the national "Don't Be a Litterburg" campaign to turn things around. Panama should consider a national push of this type. I recently visited Medellin and was delighted to find so large a city virtually free of trash/garbage and of people actually picking up trash on the sidewalks and roads. It's a black eye for Panama if it doesn't come to terms with this issue.

Incidentally, I've noticed that the trash barrel at the bus kiosk near Alto Dorado is nearly always full to overflowing. This suggests to me that a good first step would be providing more places to deposit garbage.

 

Regarding the trash barrels....i saw that in some areas garbage had been collected from the side of the road into garbage bags but then the bags were just left there with the inevitable dog assisted results.  

I know one problem is the cost of collection, my guy charges me $1.50 per bag, not something a less well off Panamanian can afford and more expensive than Canada.  When I go to the dump they charge me $3 or $4 for a truck load.  My garbage guy is non too reliable as well, one wonders about the alternatives.

 

[WryAwry]

Sr. Bellini, Dang it! Just noticed what AutoCorrect has wrought! Sorry, Roger! Stuff like this always happens when I use my Kindle .... Perhaps you have a doppelganger in Italy? 

[Roger B]

3 hours ago, WryAwry said:

Sr. Bellini, Dang it! Just noticed what AutoCorrect has wrought! Sorry, Roger! Stuff like this always happens when I use my Kindle .... Perhaps you have a doppelganger in Italy? 

 

Dav

 

Not a problem.  Well the origin of my family name is varied.  I have traced them in Spain.   Specially in the Castille province and Aragon.   It says that it has Roman Origins from the word "Bellis"  War!!.   The first Bellido in written history is traced back at the time of Don Rodrigo Diaz de Vivar aka El Cid.  Charlton Heston did a movie about this historic person.  

But I have also met some people that have told me to investigate that there are some Bellidos coming from Italy, especifically from the Tuscany region.   They even have a different coat of arms.  So I have a confusion but being Latin America "discovered" and conquered by Spain I opted for the Spanish origin.

 

[Roger B]

9 hours ago, Bud said:

You always bring a studied, well written, and sincere expression of your thoughts and feelings about this subject. And you do so without attacking or being condescending. It is clear that you care deeply about your country, which is our "adopted" country. Thank you for sharing here, and for tackling some important social issues.

When Marcelyn and I started CL last October, we were hoping that we would see a lot of postings similar to what you routinely post here on CL. One of our goals was to help integrate the diverse cultures found in the area. Your postings are right on target. That makes us happy. We appreciate your being a CL member, especially an active contributor.

On the issue of the garbage, at this stage in our lives, we believe strongly that the solution to almost every problem in the world comes from education. We understand that there are two sides to the garbage dilemma (your "chicken versus the egg" comments above), but we suggest that education is where the solution really starts, not providing the resources first.

Thanks for being a CL member.

Bud

 

I do really appreciate your comments.  It is my pleasure to share with you and all the people that are residents in Panama my little knowledge of this country, its people and its customs.   I will try also to help you all,  the most I can, with information about doing things and getting things in this country.   I have made a lot of friends in these sites that only a couple know me personally.   I will promise that next time I could travel to David and Boquete I would like to seat in a nice place and invite you all  for a delicious cup of coffee.  

I do appreciate to share lines with Dav, Keith, Bonnie, Juddy Sacco, Fran Hogan, Penny and sorry if I miss one.  People with open mind and open heart are well remembered and loved by locals.

 

REgarding garbage it is a never ending struggle, a fight that educated panamanians are always having with the authorities to improve the education of the people and working on real an effective solutions.  The fight continues until we get a solution.  The same way we did with waste water in PC.  All the sewers and waste water systems were outdated and not working so all the waste water was dumped in the river that crossed the city.  So the bay was highly contaminated.  Since the government of president Torrijos the sewer systems started to be repaired, done, and finally a waste water treatment plant was built.  There are still works underway to enhance and improve the sewer systems in other part of the city.  It was a long fight but finally we are watchingh the results.