Administrators Admin_01 Posted May 29, 2017 Administrators Share Posted May 29, 2017 9 minutes ago, Dottie Atwater said: Granted I didn't spend a lot of time but I couldn't find the message you copied. I wouldn't be surprised it it was deleted. Dottie, it is not clear to me what you are not finding. Things only rarely are deleted from CL, and I mean only extremely rarely. As I look at Bonnie's posts (plural) I have no difficulty finding everything that she refers to. Can you be more specific as to what you are not finding? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonnie Posted May 29, 2017 Share Posted May 29, 2017 40 minutes ago, Dottie Atwater said: Granted I didn't spend a lot of time but I couldn't find the message you copied. I wouldn't be surprised it it was deleted. Dottie, I assume you mean the portions of the posts that I quoted from the BPWTR newsletter. If you click on the above link, look under the names Mark Hurt and David Btesh. You will have to click on the "Read More" button. They're there. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Admin_01 Posted May 30, 2017 Administrators Share Posted May 30, 2017 Dottie, I think I now see why you are having a problem. You were not referring to content being deleted from CL, but rather ion the BPWTR website. Sorry about my confusion. Go to the link that Bonnie referenced. Then scroll to the bottom left where you will see two digits indicating pages 1 and 2 of that topic. The posting you seek is on page 2, and is the 8th of 8 postings, and written by Mark Hurt on August 10, 2014. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dottie Atwater Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 Sorry I didn't get back in time to clear up your confusion, Bud. Yes, I was not referring to content being deleted from CL. I never for a minute thought that would happen. I finally did see the rest of the post on Bonnie's link that was not complementary to the Panama "education" system. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Bolotin Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 Hi, This is the much maligned and evidently reviled huckster Chuck Bolotin. I don’t remember ever hearing of Chiriqui.Life before, but I happened to see that we had some traffic from the site, so I figured I would take a look. What I saw was not exactly admirable. The reason I’m replying is that I’ve come to the conclusion after 60 years on this earth that destructive and untrue comments must be confronted, if only to give encouragement to those who are not destructive and try to be positive. I’ll start with Bonnie, the only person I’m aware of that I know on this thread. Bonnie, I can’t for the life of me see why you want to lash out at me and our site. I have been nothing but kind, respectful and helpful to you. I just went to look at my notes to see if there were any issues, and there weren’t that I know of, other than me helping you with your password several times and trying to help to promote Bid4Boquete. You have 12 answers on our site, and I never once ever stopped you from writing whatever you wanted. In case you’ve forgotten, your account is here: https://bestplacesintheworldtoretire.com/profile/715-bonnie5004 You said that I promote hype. Does that include your answers? You also indirectly called me a huckster. Please explain to everyone exactly why you feel entitled to use that insult to describe me. Everyone should know that I have no idea who NewsLady is, other than she seems like a nice person who tried to post something of interest for the community. Thank you, NewsLady. Evidently, you can stand up for yourself, but you should know that at least I appreciate you posting the article. Keith Woolford: What we’re offering is not “hype”. Did you read the article or anything on the site? We try to be balanced and credible. Anyone can answer questions on our site, irrespective of if the answer is positive or negative. As you can read above, Bonnie has answered 12. You, too, Keith, can answer, and set everyone straight so there’s no hype. We have over 9,000 answers on the site, and we’ve removed somewhere in the area of 6; 4 because the contributor was obviously drunk (he thanked me later), and 2 because they were just abusive. If you cared to look at the site, Keith, you would see that we have multiple people answering the same question. The reason we do that is because there can be more than one “truth” (in your words, non-hype) answer. Some people are more positive in their outlook on life (maybe you know some), some are in the middle, and some are just negative and nasty. We leave it up to the reader to decide where their “truth” lies. Gordon Bakke: I’m not sure what “C’mon Chuckie” means, but you should know that my name is Chuck. Other than your crude joke that may belie something you may want to keep to yourself, your comment is nonsensical; I don’t know exactly what you’re asserting, other than I assume you’re trying to belittle me. Bud: if I’m the huckster you’re describing, please have the decency to tell me exactly how I am a huckster, and I’ll respond to you. Pederhaney: I don’t know what you mean that you’ve “blocked me”. Blocked me from what? If you mean you unsubscribed to our newsletters, OK. Relative to our newsletters being “rose-colored shinola”, that’s an interesting comment. Bonnie’s answers were featured several times on our newsletters. Was her content “shinola”, too? Are the comments and stories by Penny Barrett and Phil McGuigan shinoa as well? Here’s a beautiful story we did on Penny: https://bestplacesintheworldtoretire.com/stories/story/penny-barrett-boquete-s-liaison-extraordinaire If you think this story came through rose-colored shinona, you’re a very unhappy person. Most people found it uplifting and inspirational. I certainly did. JimAndNena: What would cause you to make an accusation that is so easily proven as false? You’re either too lazy to know what you’re talking about or just like to make things up. We are not “experiencing paradise for a 2 or 3 week trip.” We’ve been on the road for more than a year, moving from place to place with as many of our worldly possessions as will fit into our van, along with our dogs. Along the way, we’ve encountered LOTS of challenges those who stay in one place do not, such as always needing to learn about the place we’re in and having to get our visas by ourselves, while speaking very little Spanish. All this is documented in our series of road trips clearly as possible on our site. Even if you believe that our lives would naturally be less stressful than staying in one place for a year (and you’ll have to convince me on that one), you should know that we’ve been in the same place now for 5 ½ months, and we find it MUCH less stressful than traveling around. Brundageba: The background you thanked Jim and Nena for is not correct, so you may want to revise your opinion of me and more importantly, how you form opinions of others. How can you say that it’s “spot on”? Do you judge others based on hearsay? Not a good policy. And in this case, it turns out to be wrong. You may want to consider judging people based on what you know to be true personally, just like you would like to be judged. Here are my general, closing comments: About those rose-colored glasses (or if you believe in a more sinister intent, hype): You may find it useful to know that some people see the world in a more positive way than evidently most of you do. For example, I have made an intentional effort to try to focus on the positive, in events and in people. Am I always successful? Of course not, but I try. Are you trying? If not, why not? I find that when I do this is when I am most proud of my actions, and when I can say that I have been a positive influence on others. Consistent with that, I’ll choose to believe that this thread was just the result of some people having a bad day and spewing unpleasantness as a result. We’ve all done it, but very few of us are proud of it, and it needs to be confronted. Also, being nasty in public does not make you happier; at least that’s what I've seen. Saying nasty things about people you are uninformed about is not something to be proud of. Wouldn’t it be a better world if we first got the facts before attacking people and ascribing evil intent; tried to see the good side as much as possible; and at least tried to act happy? I can virtually guarantee you that if you do this, you and everyone around you will be happier as well. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Bolotin Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 I forgot to respond to JimandNina regarding how I never post the data or methodology. I post the data all the time, and its in the actual studies that I refer to, usually with a link. Before making your accusations, did you go to the studies, Jim? If you did not, and regarding the methodology, here is the link to the actual study: https://bestplacesintheworldtoretire.com/download-free-ebooks In the Expects: Expectation and Reality Study, you will notice that the survey methodology is discussed throughout the introductory pages and in great detail starting on page 74 and the entire set of results for the study in general, without any comments whatsoever, are in the appendix, starting on page 78. You'll also notice that we offer to make the raw data available to anyone who asks. Just because you don't remember something doesn't mean it didn't happen. The world exists outside of your understanding of it or your memory. All you had to do was take a look, and you would see that what you said was wrong. Also, Jim, we're not RVing, as you stated incorrectly. Do you just make this stuff up? The bigger question is: Why do you make it up? And just so my comment is complete, we do have to worry about trash, electrical, etc., and we've had to several times, because we're not in an RV and we have to stay in rentals along the way. Two of them were so bad, we had to leave, which I wrote about: https://bestplacesintheworldtoretire.com/stories/story/two-house-rentals-gone-wrong-and-a-guardian-angel Maybe you didn't see it, so it didn't happen for anyone else, either. As far as promoting the manana culture, to some extent, I am, which is the only thing I can see that you got factually right. Some of us can learn that our own immediate problems aren't so great, after all, especially when we compare our First World problems to the locals who have so much less, and seem to be so much happier. Maybe there's a lesson there for us. Some people understand this. Perhaps you can read it again. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimAndNena Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 8 hours ago, Chuck Bolotin said: I forgot to respond to JimandNina regarding how I never post the data or methodology. I post the data all the time, and its in the actual studies that I refer to, usually with a link. Before making your accusations, did you go to the studies, Jim? If you did not, and regarding the methodology, here is the link to the actual study: https://bestplacesintheworldtoretire.com/download-free-ebooks In the Expects: Expectation and Reality Study, you will notice that the survey methodology is discussed throughout the introductory pages and in great detail starting on page 74 and the entire set of results for the study in general, without any comments whatsoever, are in the appendix, starting on page 78. You'll also notice that we offer to make the raw data available to anyone who asks. Just because you don't remember something doesn't mean it didn't happen. The world exists outside of your understanding of it or your memory. All you had to do was take a look, and you would see that what you said was wrong. Also, Jim, we're not RVing, as you stated incorrectly. Do you just make this stuff up? The bigger question is: Why do you make it up? And just so my comment is complete, we do have to worry about trash, electrical, etc., and we've had to several times, because we're not in an RV and we have to stay in rentals along the way. Two of them were so bad, we had to leave, which I wrote about: https://bestplacesintheworldtoretire.com/stories/story/two-house-rentals-gone-wrong-and-a-guardian-angel Maybe you didn't see it, so it didn't happen for anyone else, either. As far as promoting the manana culture, to some extent, I am, which is the only thing I can see that you got factually right. Some of us can learn that our own immediate problems aren't so great, after all, especially when we compare our First World problems to the locals who have so much less, and seem to be so much happier. Maybe there's a lesson there for us. Some people understand this. Perhaps you can read it again. 7 hours ago, Chuck Bolotin said: I forgot to respond to JimandNina regarding how I never post the data or methodology. I post the data all the time, and its in the actual studies that I refer to, usually with a link. Before making your accusations, did you go to the studies, Jim? If you did not, and regarding the methodology, here is the link to the actual study: https://bestplacesintheworldtoretire.com/download-free-ebooks In the Expects: Expectation and Reality Study, you will notice that the survey methodology is discussed throughout the introductory pages and in great detail starting on page 74 and the entire set of results for the study in general, without any comments whatsoever, are in the appendix, starting on page 78. You'll also notice that we offer to make the raw data available to anyone who asks. Just because you don't remember something doesn't mean it didn't happen. The world exists outside of your understanding of it or your memory. All you had to do was take a look, and you would see that what you said was wrong. Also, Jim, we're not RVing, as you stated incorrectly. Do you just make this stuff up? The bigger question is: Why do you make it up? And just so my comment is complete, we do have to worry about trash, electrical, etc., and we've had to several times, because we're not in an RV and we have to stay in rentals along the way. Two of them were so bad, we had to leave, which I wrote about: https://bestplacesintheworldtoretire.com/stories/story/two-house-rentals-gone-wrong-and-a-guardian-angel Maybe you didn't see it, so it didn't happen for anyone else, either. As far as promoting the manana culture, to some extent, I am, which is the only thing I can see that you got factually right. Some of us can learn that our own immediate problems aren't so great, after all, especially when we compare our First World problems to the locals who have so much less, and seem to be so much happier. Maybe there's a lesson there for us. Some people understand this. Perhaps you can read it again. Hola Chuck, For openers, the ID here is jim and NENA. Autocorrect or not, you still need to proofread before hitting send. If your income depends on communication, spelling counts. Yes, I downloaded that tome a couple years back when it was first proffered as THE source of info for expats. I also get the emails (although as I stated, I read them from my spam folder before deletion). The point your website is missing is that only those expats with something to gain are posting. Some are trying to fill rental properties they own, some need buyers for their used car business, some have arts and crafts for sale at the Tuesday gringo market, others are just in the "misery loves company" category in the hope that enough expats will move where ever they are to be able to change the environment to their liking. I will admit that the RV description was erroneous. One can live in an RV whereas "vanning" just allows one to drag more stuff along. Your lifestyle revolves around your livelihood. You must visit many places and report on fun times and worry-free adventures or you won't get readers. The folks relocating overseas are going to be living in one place for perhaps the rest of their lives. They will not be able to pick up the next day and move to the next beachfront resort. The one defining factor in choosing a place to settle down for retirement is knowing that every day you wake up you will be faced with what ever problems you had when you went to sleep. Finding a place with minimum problems is the most stress-free. Folks who come from an environment of 24/7 infrastructure don't want to spend their retirement in the dark; tell folks about the number of times they will be without electrical power, water, sanitation, emergency services, etc. BEST PLACES TO RETIRE, remember. jim and NENA fort worth, tx/Chiriqui PS, it is Expats: Expectations & Reality not Expects: Expectation and Reality as in your post above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dottie Atwater Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 25 minutes ago, JimAndNena said: The point your website is missing is that only those expats with something to gain are posting. Some are trying to fill rental properties they own, some need buyers for their used car business, some have arts and crafts for sale at the Tuesday gringo market, others are just in the "misery loves company" category in the hope that enough expats will move where ever they are to be able to change the environment to their liking. I'll add that most of the glowing posts are from people who have something to sell--not only expats. That being said, I'll add my expat's positive comments about my life in Volcan. It is stress free? Nope, especially with 18 rescued dogs. But despite that and the lack of 24/7 "conveniences," my life here is less stressful than it was in the US. Jim is unique in that he knows how to build/fix almost anything. Many people, including a lot of men, don't. I attribute my relative ease of life in Volcan to my employee, who does know how to build/fix almost anything, plus he does a lot in caring for my dogs. Without him, though, I'd have to change my lifestyle a LOT. In the US, I had to depend on electricians, plumbers, people for car servicing and repairs, gardeners, (all VERY expensive) etc., and no matter how highly their work had been recommended, the work often turned out to be incompetent; therefore back to more hassle and expensive do-overs--if in fact they hadn't ruined what they had "fixed." (I've had more competent car servicing and repairs right here in Chiriqui--not to mention much less expensive!) Plus expensive and time consuming permits for everything in the US, practically even to breathe. So many laws against everything that people can unknowingly break the law every day. Too much government control. "Legal system" no more honest than in Panama. (The "fixed" system is just less apparent than in Panama, but anyone who is aware of how the system actually works knows the truth.) I bought an old Panamanian house within two months of arriving here and began the frustrating process of enlarging and updating it. (I've never regretted it, and my house and location are perfect for my lifestyle.) Yes, that was stressful. But I've never had a contractor anywhere that I didn't want to kill, and boy does that include in the US! Well, I could go on, but my point is I wouldn't trade my life in Volcan for anything, and this is the best time in my life, ever. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimAndNena Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 Dottie, I just added spa repair to my Credits! We had a return filter that wasn't working and after no help from the manufacturer, I pulled it apart and fixed it. Talk about your stress Relief? Getting the spa working was it's own reward. Our story parallels yours only ours was a HUD home in Texas. NONE of the plumbing worked when we got it. We hauled 5 gallon jugs of water from our other house for 2 weeks. Lucky for me that Nena grew up in Boquete doing the same thing.Ha jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dottie Atwater Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 (edited) Jim, lucky you have "you" and lucky I have Jose! Edited May 30, 2017 by Dottie Atwater addition 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonnie Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 (edited) 14 hours ago, Chuck Bolotin said: I’ll start with Bonnie, the only person I’m aware of that I know on this thread. Bonnie, I can’t for the life of me see why you want to lash out at me and our site. I have been nothing but kind, respectful and helpful to you. I just went to look at my notes to see if there were any issues, and there weren’t that I know of, other than me helping you with your password several times and trying to help to promote Bid4Boquete. You have 12 answers on our site, and I never once ever stopped you from writing whatever you wanted. In case you’ve forgotten, your account is here: https://bestplacesintheworldtoretire.com/profile/715-bonnie5004 You said that I promote hype. Does that include your answers? You also indirectly called me a huckster. Please explain to everyone exactly why you feel entitled to use that insult to describe me. I have no intention of getting into a lengthy point/counterpoint exchange with Mr. Bolotin. My views of his website and publications are well-known by most readers here. I will make some points, however, before exiting this discussion. It is true that Mr. Bolotin has been courteous in all exchanges we have had, and a reading of my twelve posts in his newsletter reveals that I have returned the favor. Mr. Bolotin apparently failed to include in his “notes” a lengthy exchange between him, me, and other participants about his publication entitled “Expats: Expectations & Reality.” Several of us took exception to his research methodology, the faults of which were pointed out. His methods would not pass muster in the research community, and faulty research yields faulty results. We were particularly critical of his conclusions reached in response to the question, “If you could do it all over again, would you move abroad?” He reported that only 3.4% replied that they probably would not or absolutely would not. But, not having surveyed any of the hundreds of folks who left because they were unhappy abroad, the survey was meaningless. It goes without saying that the vast majority of those who stayed were happy. The "real" information would be how many left and why. In addition to noting faults with the research, we cited many examples from among the Boquete populace that demonstrate that more people come and leave than people who come and stay—just the opposite of conclusions reached in his study. Understandably, because he had so much invested in the study, he refused to acknowledge that our points had any validity. As succinctly as I can, I will state my objections to the Best Places in the World to Retire website. What began as a site for expats to respond to questions of potential importance to those considering expatriation was taken over by persons with a personal, financial interest in a continuing influx of expats. These persons, naturally, put a positive spin on everything. Some of the false or misleading answers are simply laughable, but others –such as those dealing with crime and education—are shameless falsifications that could drastically alter the outcome of someone’s life if believed. All responses that obscure or downplay elements of life abroad rob readers of information that is vital to their understanding of whether or not the expatriate life is a fit for them. In my ten years here, I have met too many people who sold their homes, liquefied their assets, pulled up roots, and moved abroad only to find that they were sold a bill of goods, were not prepared or adaptable to life as it truly is here. Those who incurred the expense and stress of moving back, not to mention those who could not afford to move back, are legion. And they are sad, sad cases. As owner and publisher of the website and the BPWTR studies, I believe that Mr. Bolotin has a responsibility to live up to his motto that his is a “site that potential expats trust” and that he provides “credible information about living overseas” by conducting credible research and by limiting the influence of business interests in the question and answer forum. A “huckster” is defined as a salesman; some definitions include showy methods or misleading facts to be part and parcel of a huckster’s salesmanship. Edited May 30, 2017 by Bonnie misspelling 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimAndNena Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 Very well put, Bonnie. I would only add https://www.thestreet.com/author/1660831/ChuckBolotin/all.html It still puzzles me how so many places can be the best. I am used to only one superlative. jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Bolotin Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 Hi, everyone. You all deserve a response, as well as anyone else reading this. Afterwards, I hope to let this rest. Dottie: It’s probably true that the most glowing posts are from people who have something to sell. Although people who have something to sell can and many times are honest, it would not be unusual for them to have a bias. One of the ways we deal with this is to force everyone to fully disclose their real name, their real picture, and their real business, if they have one. We also have more than one person answer each question, so if someone is not telling the truth, they are subject to being contradicted and embarrassed in public, which most people in business would find very damaging. With full disclosure and multiple people answering, the reader can more easily determine for themselves how credible each contributor is. The reader can also visit the contributor’s profile to see other answers and judge the contributor’s credibility. Most adults are capable of this discernment. Also, I can’t think of a better way to do it, other than banning those who are selling something, which is not a good idea, for several reasons, or me deciding, in my judgment, when there is “too much” influence. I would much rather let anyone who wants to participate, structuring the site to make it less likely to provide misleading information, and make everyone provide as full a disclosure as we can. If you would think a bit about how you would do it, you can see the challenges and how we reasonably came to our conclusions. I appreciate your other comments about your stress being lower, which I suspect is the case for most people who want it to be, which was the point of the article. Jim: I can’t understand why you are puzzled. The name of the site is “Best Places in the World to Retire”, not “Best Place in the World to Retire.” See the difference? The site uses the plural of the word “Place,” which is why it has an “s” at the end of it. “Plural”, Jim, means “more than one”. I hope that clears up the puzzle for you, Jim. If you need more of an explanation, you may also notice that we have more than one “place” on our site, which would indicate to most people that different people may prefer different places (there’s that plural again). Also, we have on our site the Location Advisor (https://bestplacesintheworldtoretire.com/location-advisor), which on the homepage is advertised as “Get matched to your ideal location to live abroad.” This would also indicate to most people that there is more than one place possible. If you’re still puzzled, Jim, perhaps someone else can help you figure it out. Bonnie: I agree that it would not be a good idea to get into a length point / counterpoint, but you did go into pretty good detail about an issue that I thought was resolved. About two years ago, when you and others took exception to our methodology in that we only interviewed people who were expats at the time as opposed to those who were no longer expats at the time, it seemed like a fair point, which we considered. As a result of this consideration, we inserted an additional “bias” into the seven we already stated starting on page 74, where we discussed what we called “Expat Success Bias”. Here is what it says, word for word: “The people who took our survey are expats, meaning that they currently live overseas. It could be argued that people who live overseas are more likely to give positive reviews of living overseas, as opposed to, for example, those who used to live overseas and who no longer are. There could be some merit to this argument. Unfortunately, we did not see any reasonable to test it, so we don’t have an opinion. Even if we were able to locate people who were no longer expats and have a sample of them take our survey, we saw no logical way to normalize the results. (Which ones would we seek out, how many would we ask in proportion to existing expats, etc.?) Therefore, in light of this, we leave it to the reader to make any adjustments to the data he or she feels would make sense for his or her particular need.” In essence, there is no other way to do it other than not publishing the survey at all, or publishing it and stating the biases, which we believed and still believe provides much more value. I don’t know what is meant by your last paragraph, other than to insult me again. Most people would not be happy to be called a “huckster”. I just wish that you and everyone else would be more careful impugning the motives and reputations of others and calling people nasty names. To put it plainly, you wouldn’t want it done to you, and it’s just not nice. Also, in my case, it's not deserved. In general, it is very easy to criticize, but much more difficult to try to make something. If you have a better way of doing the survey and our site, let me know exactly how as a complete product, and then I can criticize how you would do it. I’ll bet it won’t be too difficult to find flaws, because we all live in an imperfect world, and we have to balance choices to come up with the best that is possible. That’s exactly what we’ve done, we're very proud of it and I stand by its credibility, even with it's flaws, which we try to make apparent. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwoSailors Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 Why, oh why, is CL letting Mr Bolotin have all this air time? IMO, enough has been said. We vote that this topic be closed. Let's not get like that other site...please! Leave tit for tat to them. Let's all move along! Thanks! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimAndNena Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 argumentum ad hominem Typical for a huckster backed into a corner. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Admin_01 Posted May 31, 2017 Administrators Share Posted May 31, 2017 At the request of several CL members, this topic is being locked (closed). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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