Pantah

On 1/29/2017 at 7:38 AM, Bonnie said:

I agree that the home invasions occur outside Boquete proper, however crime does occur due west/north west of Boquete. One shooting and 3 burglaries in El Salto, and a home invasion/shooting in Upper Volcancito. In Feb 2014 several tourists robbed at gunpoint in Alto Quiel (NW of Boquete). In my area crime (reported) has actually gone up after the installation of the Caldera cutoff checkpoint.

On 1/29/2017 at 7:38 AM, Bonnie said:

While we are discussing home invasions and unprovoked attacks, let's not forget about Richard Moore, who was shot without warning by three teenagers in his home in Volcancito. So far as I know, no arrests have been made. There also was a second home invasion robbery in Potrerillos during which the gringo resident was severely injured.

If Marcelyn was unfamiliar with this history of violence, as she wrote in response to Penny's post, I feel certain that there are many other people who are similarly "in the dark." These issues need to be kept alive for the benefit of newcomers and to remind all of us of the possibility of such home invasions and the inadequate police response which, as Marion suggests, is likely perpetuate them.

It is up to the homeowner to "harden" their security, which is problematic as others have pointed out. The "checkpoint" at the Caldera cutoff would have had no effect on Richard's or Marion's home invasion, nor the 3 burglaries in my block of 10 houses in Boquete. Better to have those police resources in/near Boquete, where the police response is dismal, than miles away at the Caldera cutoff.

I hope the authorities rethink their position. There are well over 100,000 Panamanians that are in the US with more liberal stay times. If the US decides to reciprocate like Brasil on visa issues, it will not bode well for them.

Also the most populous countries in the western hemisphere don't require attorneys for residency, and they issue 6 mo tourist visas.

I see a lot of tunnel vision here.

Furthermore I commonly see glib comments about deportation of non compliers. Panama simply doesn't have the budget for it.

I also hope someone in the Panama government sees this post, but doubt they will be able to shake the attorneys loose from their self serving positions regarding their role in this process,

Excellent article. You may get the necessary 40 credits other ways. Several countries have totalization agreements with the US (Canada for example).  Many developed countries in Europe and elsewhere have reciprocity agreements with US Social Security. You can google this. You don't have to be a US citizen to earn or draw SS, but there are certain requirements.

PS: the Supreme Court ruled SS a tax, so congress can change it at any time.

Also to open an online SS account you must provide a US address.

4 hours ago, Dottie Atwater said:

My employee is constructing a cover for my garden. There is not a peak in the middle. The water will drain to one side of the garden.

On one side, the tubos set in concrete are 7 feet high. On the opposite side he set tubos 6 feet high. The space between the two sides is 12 feet. There will be carriolas welded every four feet from one side to the other for the 30-foot length of the garden to support a plastic cover.

He just welded the first carriola today from the 7-foot side across to the 6-foot side. I called a halt to the procedure because it sure looks to me that a one-foot difference between 12 feet will not provide sufficient drainage of the rain. He may have to remove that first carriola and cut the 6-foot tubos to a shorter length. Can someone please give me the correct advice about how much shorter the one side should be in order to provide proper drainage of the rain?

I looked on the internet and all the information about "ratios," etc. is beyond my comprehension. Thanks!

If I am correct the slope you have planned is 4.7 degrees. The water will run off, but it won't flush any leaves. I have a 10 degree slope on my back roof, and what accumulates grows stuff, and I have to remove it. My front roof is 20 degrees and doesn't have this problem. Hope this helps. Your plastic cover is going to sag somewhat, so even more slope is needed.

2 hours ago, Bonnie said:

I assume in the latter case she didn't have her passport? Absolutely necessary for international travel.

Bonnie, here is what is reported on "ning": 

Just two months ago mt wife, ****, was returning to Panama' from Atlanta and encountered a problem.  They would not honor her cedula.  They even claimed that the "expedido" date indicated that it had expired.  In fact that is the date it was issued.  They ignored the "indefinidamente" which indicates indefinite expiration.  She even showed her Panama' drivers license but that did nothing.  As a result Delta airlines made her buy a Panama' to Atlanta return ticket. Of course, she made sure it was refundable, but we were out about $1,500 for two months plus a service fee.

My comment: I would assume she had her passport to board in Atlanta.

The UK lady I know personally, and will add more info when see her in Boquete.

Two stories this time. UK citizen tried to re-enter at Paso Canoas, after doing a border hop to make her foreign drivers license good again. Agent noticed 90 day intervals on her passport stamps, and stated "I know what you are up to, and you can't come in"!

Second reported on "ning". US citizen with both the pensionado and Panama driver license shown after entering at Tocumen (PTY) was required to buy a return ticket to US to enter, even after protesting, at some expense to her.

Both within the last few days to weeks.

So just another heads up, expect the unexpected.

51 minutes ago, Brundageba said:

I seriously doubt that would happen. It could return to every three months. That has always been the standard time period world wide.  That said the best bet is always to do what you can to insure a permanent residency status.  It relieves you of the worry to a degree. 

There is no standard time period that I know of. US, Canada, and Mexico give 180 days. In Mexico I got residency in less than 3 weeks, no attorney, police or health check.

NB: many people quote the time periods incorrectly. It is 90 and 180 days, not 3 and 6 months, And yes it matters!

I am not sure migracion practices "legality" as demonstrated in the Law Keith posted! I will state again, who benefits from the 3 day stay out? I smell a rat.

9 hours ago, Roger B said:

Pantah

 

Most of the tourist enter Panama first by the international airport in PC, I would say more than 80%, and the problems mentioned of "border hopping" is not an issue there.  Even that this government is being accused of being so "slow" and having the economy in a bad situation there is a report posted by Central American Data that showed a statistics that the number of tourist that visited Panama increased in comparison to previous years and was almost the same that went to CR in the same year 2015. The difference was that tourist in Panama spent almost double the amount of money.

As a representative of US based corporations I received visitors from US and other countries and never have received from them any complaint. Their immigration process at the airport was quick and easy.  I have observed that when traveling and returning back to Panama.  The only place where I have heard about this issue is at Paso Canoas and Rio Sereno.  I have also to admit that it was at the forums at BN when I heard for the first time the term "border hopping" and its extensive use by some expats. 

Why this issue has not made the news and has not been a complaint in the Tourism Chamber?  Because it is not an issue for "real tourist".  Au contraire there are huge complaints of Panamanians regarding the easy way some" tourist" stay in Panama illegally, specially from some South American countries.

Roger, thanks for your informed response. Last year, I stumbled across a Wikileaks document talking about "irregularities" in Chiriqui province by governmental authorities. The situation at the border may be related to that. Quien sabe! I don't want to speculate on that. I do know from past experience that the policy has been different at different crossings.

Again I just want to make a heads up on Chiriqui policy change only to those that are unaware. I don't want to discuss the merits or lack thereof.

Roger, I fear for the travel industry. The law Keith provided is not being followed, and he said it is how they are applied that varies. Migracion will not let you book a return ticket to your residence country, and the 3 day stay over as far as I can tell is only to reset the $2000 duty exemption on re-entry, nothing to do with the person transiting.

This is not an issue for me, but my observation is that many countries let you do an immediate turnaround and for tourist who want to visit several countries with Panama on their itinerararies are going to have a problem. Researching ones trip to Panama is dicey as the policy (not the law) changes without warning. I have friends here in the travel business and they are getting complaints. 

I am curious as why the change, and how does Panama benefit? For sure Costa Rica is getting the tourist spending for the 3 days the tourist have to be out of Panama.

27 minutes ago, Keith Woolford said:

Panama Immigration can apply their regulations when and as they see fit and can even refuse people entry if they want. It's just that they are not following them in the manner you'd like them to.

Where does it say in the Act that a person can leave the country and be immediately re-admitted?

'Those who are passing through'?  The term 'onward travel' gets thrown around a lot in these discussions.

Every traveler has to return to his country of origin or residence eventually and should be able to provide an itinerary for it  ..otherwise they're not a traveler.

Bouncing back and forth between two countries without having residency status in either, isn't it.

Keith, Thanks for providing the law expanding the definition Article 43.7 clearly states 'return passage to country of origin or residence'. This person had Mexican residence, and a ticket to Mexico was not acceptable, contrary to the law you cited.

This is not about me. I applied for pensionado status in 2005. This is a heads up about how things work here. Brundegabe pointed out the same. It comes with the terratory. It is in my opinion not good for the tourist industry, but that is another thread, Again, for me just advising people that may be affected by this. I have a few friends that I will advise, as it will affect them. 

The point I am making is Panama is not following their own laws. They are not "playing by the rules" My second point is a "pay it forward thing" as a heads up to be prepared for the changes if it affects you. It has nothing to do about getting residency. The people it affects are those who are passing through, and the tourist businesses that cater to them, among others.

Some years back, Migracion dropped the stay to 30 days without warning (twice), causing major cancellations of trip packages at the time. The then Minister of Tourism, Ruben Blades was not happy.

I may add, my post was an advisory to others that your travel plans will be impacted by unpublished rules and adjust accordingly. Not complicated really.

Bonnie, I in no way expect foreign embassies to get involved with this.

My main reason for posting is to give a heads up for border hoppers and onward travellers that they can't go by what Panamanian law says, and what the new changes are nothing more.

I don't desire to get into a dialog on what people "should do". It is too much a case by case, and individual decision.

Two problems here. Re: Article 43.7 clearly states 'return passage to country of origin or residence. The US persons residence is Mexico. The 3 day stay out is for $2000 duty exemption, not the physical person.

The issue is that they are applying rules that are seemingly by whim. 43.7 in particular causes grief to onward travellers. I understand other countries embassy comments on this are now incorrect, as far as the practice in Rio Sereno, but they were correct before. This new border policy has been in effect for two months.

This person does not wish to apply for Panama residency, as he is waiting for US social security.

To summarise, two new strict rules not supported by law.

An acquaintance just returned from a very problematic border hop at Rio Sereno, where he has hopped before. He left Panama on Monday and was told he could not come back until Thursday.

On returning he showed showed his airline reservation as before. No good, reservation must be paid. Migration was asked if it could be onward travel. They said no, it must be to the US. (this runs counter to what the US and UK embassy states on their webpages). He managed to get a paid reservation after a few stressful hours. His ATM statement showing a balance in six figures meant nothing.

This person shares his time between Panama and another Latin American country, with no intention of returning to the US anytime soon. He is considering bailing on Panama if he has to go through this again.

Anybody have any Panamanian government connections to put an end to this idiocy.

TwoSailors, quite perceptive, who knows! Anyway, I recommend that one pays close attention to how their insurance is cancelled, and for any typos on their policies, as an error there could set up problems with the people who have an interest in getting you towed, accident claims, etc. My first agency had me auto renewed on my credit card, which was a surprise to me. Had to go to David to get it undone. Once there I found out the agent who had insured me initially in Boquete was no longer with them and he wouldn't tell me, they did. I pay cash now on just about everything, lesson learned.

So I am batting 100 percent hassles with every agent so far, even the ones that appear recommended.

Still waiting to sort my current mess out so I can drive again. Really frustrating to not talk freely about this, with the lovely laws here. References here are really dicey, as odds are (51 percent or more) that the person giving a good reference hasn't had a bad experience (yet).

A good book to read, if interested is "Invisible Bankers" by Andrew Tobias, which is about the insurance industry and how they get in bed with regulators and lobbyists.

When I first came here I could self insure. Not anymore. 

I can't respond to this, if you get my drift.

Additionally, I have had 3 agents here. Problems with all 3.

I have been rendered uninsured in the weirdest (maybe not for Panama) way. I did not renew with my past local agent for several reasons. When they called my cel a few days ago, I again said NO. That and the fact that I never paid for any renewal, I thought I was good to go. So I go to my new agent and she says she cant insure me, as it would duplicate a policy with the same company. WTF!!!. Seems they renewed me without my permission or payment, but I of course don't have anything to show the transitos, and they tow for that. And they are closed at this time for semana santa.

I believe this the same agency that put a typo in a lady's policy which resulted in her getting towed to the tune of almost 300 bucks.

This same agency has (twice) sent out mass mailings to their clients not blind copying recipients. Major bad move, I now know of some your middle names too!

Moral: expect the unexpected, and although I won't say who the incompetent party is, pick your local agent carefully.

I have been rendered uninsured in the weirdest (maybe not for Panama) way. I did not renew with my past local agent for several reasons. When they called my cel a few days ago, I again said NO. That and the fact that I never paid for any renewal, I thought I was good to go. So I go to my new agent and she says she cant insure me, as it would duplicate a policy with the same company. WTF!!!. Seems they renewed me without my permission or payment, but I of course don't have anything to show the transitos, and they tow for that. And they are closed at this time for semana santa.

I believe this the same agency that put a typo in a lady's policy which resulted in her getting towed to the tune of almost 300 bucks.

This same agency has (twice) sent out mass mailings to their clients not blind copying recipients. Major bad move, I now know of some your middle names too!

Moral: expect the unexpected, and although I won't say who the incompetent party is, pick your local agent carefully.

Not sure that would work either. Google maps shows a bypass to the Caldera cutoff through Los Molinos. 

Speaking of resource allocation, last year it took the police 45 minutes to respond to a crime in progress at my home in Boquete as they were tied up in Palmira. And a reported shooting recently in El Salto wasn't responded to at all. Why are the cops posted to such an ineffective location?

2 hours ago, Bonnie said:

I have my doubts that maleantes from David would go to the considerable trouble and time of getting from David to Boquete via Caldera. On the other hand, our most vicious crime took place in Caldera, and the maleantes would have been detained or at least observed from where the police stop now is. I think they see themselves as protecting both Boquete and Caldera. If they were posted on the opposite side of the road to Caldera, as you suggest, traffic from David simply could take a right to Caldera and avoid the checkpoint.

Actually the murder of the Canadian was in Macano, although in the general Caldera area, the victims house was accessible from two directions both well before the Caldera cutoff checkpoint. Going to Boquete via Gualaca maybe takes a half hour more than David direct to Boquete.

What are the hours of operation? I went by there once when it started to rain during the daytime and they were packing up. If their hours are limited and I was a bad guy, I would go when they were not there, and after checking "waze" on my smartphone. Also has no effect on criminals that live north of the checkpoint. So what is it they really do and when?

PS: there is a back way into Boquete via La Estrella if someone was really desperate.

I think you have a very clear grasp. The bad guys with smartphones can use the social program "waze" to show police check points rendering them mostly moot. Believe it or not I have never been stopped at a police checkpoint in any state or other country, except Panama. Can't be good for the tourism image. What's with that? I think I know!

Well stated Bud. I asked a Panamena shop owner about this and she said it was uphill near the Baru entrada and road to Volcancito intersection, which puts it much closer to the Moore residence. Still hearsay though. Like you, (and the other readers) I need more confirmation. Probably not many english speakers in the area, so info for us might be limited.