Venezuelans Stuck at the Border

[Roger B]

On 3/3/2017 at 7:09 AM, Hil said:

Some of them might be working in Costa Rica on the Venezuelan owned Palma Farms on the Pacific Side. Costa Rica requires 72hrs out of country also on a tourist visa. I toured a Venezuelan palma farm and watched their operation near Quepos. The have a huge herd of water buffalo they use to pull their trailers on the farms. Also, they have so much respect for their animals they work them 2 days and rest them 5 days. 300 is a huge number at the same time. I wonder if Panama is exaggerating a little.

Hil.

No. It is not.   The problem is more complicated and serious that anyone can imagine and it is rising to levels that could end in something not so good for everyone involved.

[Roger B]

On 3/7/2017 at 11:24 AM, MarieElaine said:

Law 591 states that Americans, Canadians, Brits and Australians need to leave the country every 180 days and all others only get 30 days.  It would be devastating to this area if they boot out all retirees living as tourists.  We bring employment and spend our pensions here without taking jobs from Panamanians.  Think of the trades people alone who would be out of work.  Most Central and South American countries encourage retirees to live in their countries and bring money into their economies.  Am I wrong?  Too much logic?

Marie Elaine

First we should diferentiate tourist from immigrants.  They are not the same.  Tourist definition is of a person who visit a country or place for leisure in a limited amount of time to know interesting places, cultural expresions and other stuff and return back to their place of origin in a short period of time.   It differs mostly from what some foreign people are doing.  Most of them are immigrants not tourist.  Language and definitions are clear.  

It is ok that foreign people will bring some money from their places to their economy they are living.  Some immigrants are making money in the country and sending them back to their country of origin.  But regarding immigrants leaving in a country my question would be why dont do the correct thing and get their legal status as resident in the country they are living and having a nice time.   By doing this they will enjoy all the benefits that being a legal resident will bring and will not have any kind of fear of those things that are happening when authorities find that there are things in terms of migration that are not working correctly.

Yes.  Some Central America and South America countries are aiming for retirees to live in their countries but as much as I can recall all of them require that people do the right things in terms of the local regulations they had about immigrants.  Seems like the problem is semantic because some people tend to confuse constantly the terms TOURIST and IMMIGRANTS.

[Roger B]

On 3/7/2017 at 1:02 PM, Siempre Soluciones said:

All joking aside, I just can't understand the abruptness of such action, many honest people will be impacted.

Honest and correct people will do everything the right way.  As it should be.  So when you do things accordingly there wont be any problem.  Legally you will be protected.

[Roger B]

On 3/8/2017 at 7:35 AM, Panama Bill said:

The law is the law. Those of us who came here legally did it according to the laws and requirements of Panama, why anybody else should do it differently or illegally is beyond me. And worse yet, why would somebody try to excuse them for their actions?

Panama Bill

You are right.  That is the way it should be.

[Roger B]

On 3/8/2017 at 7:57 AM, Jim and Judi said:

"Illegally" is one thing, but "differently" is another. I don't think anyone is breaking the law by border hopping. It might be risky, due to changing law, interpretation and enforcement, but certainly not illegal up to this point.

Jim and Judy

The border hoping is not "illegal".  It is a "hole" in the law.   Again.  Remember that one thing is a tourist and another thing is a Resident or immigrant.   For a normal tourist 90 - 180 days is enough time to be a TOURIST in a country.  But living in a country is another subject.  You are not a tourist anymore.  You are a resident or immigrant.  Them there are laws and regulations for immigrants.   I think that it is a fault that the legislators did when they create and wrote the law.  They left some things not covered and subject to interpretation.  But what it is clear is the definition that some people seem to forget about what is a TOURIST and what is a RESIDENT or IMMIGRANT.   They are not the same.  They dont mean the same thing.   There is a huge difference in those individuals according to the law.

[Roger B]

On 3/8/2017 at 0:36 PM, Brundageba said:

Bud stated: " The Jubilado Visa is one with an indefinite expiration date" Humm ok...Jubilado Visa

  I just looked at my E-Cedula which was issued June 2013.  It states clearly that it expires June 2023.  I should still be alive and (God willing) well in 2023.   It will be interesting to find out what will be required for this renewal. Anybody know?

Alison

Having your E cedula means that you are legally a resident in Panama.  So I guess that the only thing you have to do is going to the Tribunal Electoral with your old cedula and apply for a new one.   Just as any other panamanian do.

I investigate and found in the Panama Tramita Web page:  http://www.panamatramita.gob.pa/tramite/renovación-de-cédulas-de-extranjeros, that your have to go to the Tribunal Electoral with the old Cedula and pay a fee of about $4.00.  They will take the picture and you have to return back in 3 days to pick up the new cedula.

[Hil]

On 3/8/2017 at 3:11 PM, Roger B said:

Hil.

No. It is not.   The problem is more complicated and serious that anyone can imagine and it is rising to levels that could end in something not so good for everyone involved.

Panama might not be exaggerating but I know from experience there are just as many Vens and Colombians working in Costa Rica (costa rica doesn't do 180 day visas) on a 90 visa as there are in panama if not more. So some of them being denied entry to border hop into Panama and return to Costa Rica to work have the same delima. So, Costa Rica might be next to enforce there labor issues also or they will have Vens and Colombians overstaying Visas in there country illegally.

I talked with a prominent Panamanian today and he slammed Varela and the ministry of immigration. I guess he supported the expats more than his own country. I didn't pursue the issue anymore and kept hitting golf balls.

I'm safe---I have an Ecedula.

Those that don't have the carnet or ecedula are not happy and will be forced to leave soon or when there Visa expires and I understand. Most of them are good people not stealing jobs and spending a lot of money in Panama. Sad. A few expats work here illegally but the Vens and Colombians are the real problems. I don't know how a country could cherry pick by nationalities and get away with it.

We'll see in a couple of weeks. I don't think all the information has been publized yet.

[Bud]

5 hours ago, Brundageba said:

Bud stated: " The Jubilado Visa is one with an indefinite expiration date" Humm ok...Jubilado Visa

  I just looked at my E-Cedula which was issued June 2013.  It states clearly that it expires June 2023.  I should still be alive and (God willing) well in 2023.   It will be interesting to find out what will be required for this renewal. Anybody know?

Allison, your words suggest to me that you are confusing two different forms of residency documentation. Maybe not, but in the interest of clarity, let me try again.

The jubilado visa (aka the pensionado visa) is a different approach to gaining legal residency from the e-cédula, which is, as I understand it, the highest form of documentation for legal residency for non-Panamanian citizens. The jubilado visa has an indefinite expiration date, which means that it can be terminated at any time by government authorities. (I have yet to hear of such a cancellation, but then I am not connected into those channels.)

On the other hand, the e-cédula card is issued only after a person is granted permanent residency status. The e-cédula card itself expires every ten years; having the card expire every ten years is NOT the same as having your permanent legal residency expire after ten years. I have been told that e-cédula card expiration is done so as to have a current picture of the documented person.

I really don't know what a person's status would be if they did not renew their cédula (and note here that I am generalizing to any cédula, be it a natural born citizen's cédula [which has no letter prefix], or a naturalized citizen's cédula [which has the letter "N" prefix], or an extranjero's cédula [which has the letter "E" prefix]). My knee jerk reaction is that they would be considered a legal citizen or resident as applicable, but without the requisite documentation. Recall that Panama has an identity statute that requires all adults to carry and disclose their ID documents whenever requested by any law enforcement officer. That is what happens somewhat frequently when you are stopped at the checkpoints on the roadways. Maybe there is a fine for not carrying the required identity documents.

Regarding the identity document matter, a person with a jubilado (pensionado) visa is supposed to carry and present not only the original of their laminated jubilado card, but also their passport, although I have been led to believe that law enforcement officers generally will accept a legible copy of the appropriate page(s) from a passport.

As noted by Hil in his above reply, the jubilado (pensionado) visa card is technically known as a carnet. To be comfortable from a legal documentation perspective while living in Panama as a non-citizen, one should have either a carnet or an e-cédula. Otherwise you are a tourist, with constraints on time in the country.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer and am not giving legal advice here. The best bet would be to check with immigration. (I add this disclaimer before Keith chastises me.  )

[Roger B]

On 3/8/2017 at 4:02 PM, Hil said:

Panama might not be exaggerating but I know from experience there are just as many Vens and Colombians working in Costa Rica (costa rica doesn't do 180 day visas) on a 90 visa as there are in panama if not more. So some of them being denied entry to border hop into Panama and return to Costa Rica to work have the same delima. So, Costa Rica might be next to enforce there labor issues also or they will have Vens and Colombians overstaying Visas in there country illegally.

I talked with a prominent Panamanian today and he slammed Varela and the ministry of immigration. I guess he supported the expats more than his own country. I didn't pursue the issue anymore and kept hitting golf balls.

I'm safe---I have an Ecedula.

Those that don't have the carnet or ecedula are not happy and will be forced to leave soon or when there Visa expires and I understand. Most of them are good people not stealing jobs and spending a lot of money in Panama. Sad. A few expats work here illegally but the Vens and Colombians are the real problems. I don't know how a country could cherry pick by nationalities and get away with it.

We'll see in a couple of weeks. I don't think all the information has been publized yet.

Hil

The problem started when a large amount of people from Venezuela came to Panama flying away from their economic and social problem their country is having.  So they are leaving their country with nothing in their hands and only hopes to get a better life.  But Panama is a very little country and couldnt have space and jobs for those large amount of "refugees".  If we have actually a lot of problems to solve for our own people regarding housing, transportation, education, jobs, cost of living, healthcare and so on.  Imagine having increased this problems with new people coming from other country.  Lets remember that all of those immigrants from Venezuela are not rich.  Some of them are living in small neighborhoods and some of them are renting an apartment and there are more than 8 people living in the apartment and paying together the cost of the monthly rental.  They need to make a living and get a job for paying all their bills, food and also send money to their family back in Venezuela.  It is a socioeconomic problem Panama is having.  

Regarding the prominent panamanian you were talking about this issue.  We all blame and criticize President Varela's government but most of us because of their very soft immigration policy and lack of controls and also for the economic situation the country have right now.   I have to admit very sadly that some prominent panamanian businessmen are taking advantage of this large amount of expats because they are cheap labor not protected by labor laws.   They are being underpaid and exploited.  Businessmen did not pay them all the stuff that by law should be paid to any legal worker such as overtime, XIII month, vacations, working on a holyday, social security, etc.  The foreign people will accept this bad working conditions because they need the money to survive.  They are in disadvantage because being illegal makes them fearfull of claiming workers rights. It is a double shame.  First they are not giving jobs to their own people and they are hiring people with needs and taking advantage of their needs.

Yes.  You are safe watching all the news in your living room without any problem. Why?  Because you did it right.  You are a legal resident and have rights in this country and your are protected by our laws and constitution.  They wouldnt have any problem if they did it right in the beginning.  

[Pat]

On 3/8/2017 at 3:32 PM, Roger B said:

Jim and Judy

The border hoping is not "illegal".  It is a "hole" in the law.   Again.  Remember that one thing is a tourist and another thing is a Resident or immigrant.   For a normal tourist 90 - 180 days is enough time to be a TOURIST in a country.  But living in a country is another subject.  You are not a tourist anymore.  You are a resident or immigrant.  Them there are laws and regulations for immigrants.   I think that it is a fault that the legislators did when they create and wrote the law.  They left some things not covered and subject to interpretation.  But what it is clear is the definition that some people seem to forget about what is a TOURIST and what is a RESIDENT or IMMIGRANT.   They are not the same.  They dont mean the same thing.   There is a huge difference in those individuals according to the law.

Sounds like some people thought they could remain a tourist and just continue a border hopping process forever. Really??

[Penny]

On 3/8/2017 at 0:36 PM, Brundageba said:

  I just looked at my E-Cedula which was issued June 2013.  It states clearly that it expires June 2023.  I should still be alive and (God willing) well in 2023.   It will be interesting to find out what will be required for this renewal. Anybody know?

Everybody (including Panamanians) have to renew their cedula every 10 years. This is a routine process and is in place because the government want's a current photo on your national identification card.

It seems to me that Panama has every right to decide what qualities they want in their resident visa holders. Many permanent tourists don't get visa status because they can't meet the requirements set by the Panamanian government. These are quite often the folks who come here without sufficient resources to take care of themselves in case of a medical or other emergency. They run up huge bills at the local hospitals and then disappear into the night.leaving the Panamanian citizens to foot the bill.

All sovereign nations have a right to control their immigration -- even the United States.

[Roger B]

On 3/8/2017 at 4:41 PM, Bud said:

Allison, your words suggest to me that you are confusing two different forms of residency documentation. Maybe not, but in the interest of clarity, let me try again.

The jubilado visa (aka the pensionado visa) is a different approach to gaining legal residency from the e-cédula, which is, as I understand it, the highest form of documentation for legal residency for non-Panamanian citizens. The jubilado visa has an indefinite expiration date, which means that it can be terminated at any time by government authorities. (I have yet to hear of such a cancellation, but then I am not connected into those channels.)

On the other hand, the e-cédula card is issued only after a person is granted permanent residency status. The e-cédula card itself expires every ten years; having the card expire every ten years is NOT the same as having your permanent legal residency expire after ten years. I have been told that e-cédula card expiration is done so as to have a current picture of the documented person.

I really don't know what a person's status would be if they did not renew their cédula (and note here that I am generalizing to any cédula, be it a natural born citizen's cédula [which has no letter prefix], or a naturalized citizen's cédula [which has the letter "N" prefix], or an extranjero's cédula [which has the letter "E" prefix]). My knee jerk reaction is that they would be considered a legal citizen or resident as applicable, but without the requisite documentation. Recall that Panama has an identity statute that requires all adults to carry and disclose their ID documents whenever requested by any law enforcement officer. That is what happens somewhat frequently when you are stopped at the checkpoints on the roadways. Maybe there is a fine for not carrying the required identity documents.

Regarding the identity document matter, a person with a jubilado (pensionado) visa is supposed to carry and present not only the original of their laminated jubilado card, but also their passport, although I have been led to believe that law enforcement officers generally will accept a legible copy of the appropriate page(s) from a passport.

As noted by Hil in his above reply, the jubilado (pensionado) visa card is technically known as a carnet. To be comfortable from a legal documentation perspective while living in Panama as a non-citizen, one should have either a carnet or an e-cédula. Otherwise you are a tourist, with constraints on time in the country.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer and am not giving legal advice here. The best bet would be to check with immigration. (I add this disclaimer before Keith chastises me.  )

Bud:

The cedula is a document to prove our identity and our legal status in Panama.  Everybody should carry the cedula when transiting in Panama.  It could be requested by the police authorities at any specific time.  There are some fines that the local authorities could place to the person who does not carry their cedula. 

[Moderator_02]

Moderator comment: Take note of the last sentence in this news article.

---

 

http://www.prensa.com/in_english/Extranjeros-deben-legalizar-estatus_21_4706739282.html

[Bonnie]

1 hour ago, Penny said:

Everybody (including Panamanians) have to renew their cedula every 10 years. This is a routine process and is in place because the government want's a current photo on your national identification card.

It seems to me that Panama has every right to decide what qualities they want in their resident visa holders. Many permanent tourists don't get visa status because they can't meet the requirements set by the Panamanian government. These are quite often the folks who come here without sufficient resources to take care of themselves in case of a medical or other emergency. They run up huge bills at the local hospitals and then disappear into the night.leaving the Panamanian citizens to foot the bill.

All sovereign nations have a right to control their immigration -- even the United States.

In my work as U.S. Warden, virtually every case that I've encountered over the past ten months (as opposed to routine questions) has involved to some degree someone who came here without the financial resources to provide for himself/herself. This administrative order addresses not only these underfunded folks (who believed all the hype about how cheap Panama is), but also those who could not pass the criminal history check. As to those who say they are following the prevailing wisdom to live here a year before committing, it's my understanding that you're allowed two exits/ re-entries. That should be plenty of time to decide if Panama is right for you.

[Pat]

Thanks for this data, Bonnie. In my opinion this immigration law that is now being enforced will rid Panama of many of the people who came here without the financial resources to provide for themselves and/or who could not pass the required criminal history check. Others may decide to follow the law and meet the Panamanian requirements for remaining in this country, their choice.

This law is a good thing.

[Bill Uhlman]

5 hours ago, Bonnie said:

In my work as U.S. Warden, virtually every case that I've encountered over the past ten months (as opposed to routine questions) has involved to some degree someone who came here without the financial resources to provide for himself/herself. This administrative order addresses not only these underfunded folks (who believed all the hype about how cheap Panama is), but also those who could not pass the criminal history check. As to those who say they are following the prevailing wisdom to live here a year before committing, it's my understanding that you're allowed two exits/ re-entries. That should be plenty of time to decide if Panama is right for you.

So after several years of visits, we are contemplating a three month trial in late 2017, followed by (hopefully) an application for a  pensionado visa.  It seems to me that process will require one or perhaps three border hops before all is done. Given the current hysteria, if it is true, we could be taking a risk each hop of being denied re-entry and perhaps throwing all our efforts to waste (not to mention rental agreements, auto purchases, etc). While fortunately we have 9 months or more before our three month start for all of this to settle out, it is really concerning for people like us who intended to do things right to possibly be locked out in the middle of the process. We will have to closely watch how this plays out before we commit to selling our house, and trying to settle in Panama.

[JudyS]

6 hours ago, Bill Uhlman said:

So after several years of visits, we are contemplating a three month trial in late 2017, followed by (hopefully) an application for a  pensionado visa.  It seems to me that process will require one or perhaps three border hops before all is done. Given the current hysteria, if it is true, we could be taking a risk each hop of being denied re-entry and perhaps throwing all our efforts to waste (not to mention rental agreements, auto purchases, etc). While fortunately we have 9 months or more before our three month start for all of this to settle out, it is really concerning for people like us who intended to do things right to possibly be locked out in the middle of the process. We will have to closely watch how this plays out before we commit to selling our house, and trying to settle in Panama.

Once you have a letter from your attorney stating that your pensionado visa is in process, you are no longer treated as a border hopping tourist.  You will be able to leave and come back.

[JohnF13]

Bonnie, FWIW, my lawyer told me you need a special rider on your temporary carnet if you are going to leave and re-enter the Country.  That was a few years ago so I do not know if it is current, might be worthwhile checking if anyone is in that situation.

[Penny]

5 minutes ago, JohnF13 said:

Bonnie, FWIW, my lawyer told me you need a special rider on your temporary carnet if you are going to leave and re-enter the Country.  That was a few years ago so I do not know if it is current, might be worthwhile checking if anyone is in that situation.

Judy and John are correct. When you have a temporary visa waiting for your permanent visa, you need to buy a multiple entry visa for $100 from immigration. This is just a large stamp in your passport which allows you to exit and enter the country.

[Keith Woolford]

According to TVN this morning, the number of people checking out of Panama at Paso Canoas has decreased.

http://www.tvn-2.com/nacionales/provincias/Baja-extranjeros-Panama-Paso-Canoa_0_4706529396.html

[Moderator_02]

http://www.thepanamanews.com/

[JimAndNena]

The following is jim's recollection of how we got to this point. Disclaimer: jim used to drink and he is now old so his memory is suspect.

The tourist visa was once valid for 30 days. Possibly there was a 60 day extension.

During Torrijos' presidency, he overrode the immigration agency and changed the term for a tourist visa to 90 days, with a 90 day extension. The reason was that the amount of time it took to get legal work done was always exceeding the time allowed by the tourist visa. The change was via executive decree which did not explain how everything worked. So, when a tourist arrived at PTY, he was asked how long he was going to stay. If he said 180 days, the official stamped tourist visa and then hand wrote 180 on the stamp.

The combination of executive decrees and laws and amendments is bewildering to everyone, including the lawyers and the "boarder" guards.

[Rooikop]

we can't get back now .so we have five days in Costa Rica. well done Panama. good way to encourage investors.

Edited March 9, 2017 by Moderator_02
this posting was merged from a different topic since it is directly related to this topic

[Moderator_02]

2 hours ago, Rooikop said:

we can't get back now .so we have five days in Costa Rica. well done Panama. good way to encourage investors.

REQUEST FOR URGENT ASSISTANCE

Moderator stepping in here on behalf of a "stranded" CL member. There have been some PMs (private messages) between Rooikop and the staff here at CL. I have that member's request and permission to publish the following information. Rooikop's real name is Steven Walker.

From the above quoted reply, you can discern that Rooikop (and wife/friend/partner) are not able to return to Boquete, having been stopped now for five days from returning from their border hopping excursion to Costa Rica. Rooikop indicates that they are now headed for Nicaragua. If you wish more information about Rooikop, check his profile here on CL, which includes information about property that he owns in the Boquete area.

Someone named Gareth is in this area and assisting Rooikop -- specifically taking care of Rooikop's animals, thought to include monkeys. Gareth may need assistance, but what assistance might be needed is unclear to the staff here at CL.

Gareth's cell is 6275-7085. Rooikop's email address is rooikop@fastmail.fm or you may contact him via PM here on CL at @Rooikop.

If anyone wishes to assist Rooikop and/or Gareth, you have the information here in this reply to follow through. In other words, a fellow Boqueteño is in need of some assistance, given the "Draconian" (his terminology) nature of what is happening to them.

Please help if you can.

[Bonnie]

Gareth is the son of Steve and Michelle Walker. His sister and a friend are visiting from New Zealand and wanted to see Costa Rica. Although having been here only two weeks and having with them their return tickets to New Zealand, they are being refused reentry to Panama. I spoke with Gareth this morning and advised him to contact the British Embassy and/or the British warden in Boquete.